Matt Scannell of Vertical Horizon
Celebrating the 25th Anniversary of "Everything You Want" and Practicing Fierce Gratitude
This is a gift that we are given every single day by people who support our band and support our music.
I interviewed Matt Scannell of Vertical Horizon. We discussed:
The 25th anniversary of their album Everything You Want
The recurring “slow build” theme throughout his career
Covering R.E.M.
Fierce Gratitude
And more
The Vertical Horizon website: http://verticalhorizon.com/
Cris Cohen: You've described the through line of Everything You Want and your songwriting on it as “a young man who's trying to understand all the ways in which he's broken.”
Matt Scannell: Yes.
Cris Cohen: Which I get -- and my therapist can attest to -- but I'm wondering, as you look back and with the passage of time, do you now see that younger you in a different light or maybe have a little bit more sympathy toward what he went through?
Matt Scannell: Well, first of all, I have such a hard time talking about myself in the third person. My feelings over time about that time in my life and in our career… I do have to say that I'm proud of myself. And that's a pretty great way to feel. Because there are many things in my life that I'm not proud of, ways I handled situations, ways I treated people, things I've done and things I haven't done. And I've always tried to learn how to be a better person, a better human being, sometimes with greater effect than others. But I think I have learned to feel proud of myself for really drilling down, putting in the time, trying to become a better songwriter, become a better singer, learning how to be a front man… and you know, failing along the way at all those things.
But many bands that I know are almost resentful of their hit song(s) and they begrudgingly play it every night. And I am elated to feel the absolute opposite. I'm so grateful that I found my songwriting identity or voice in time for us to have been given that opportunity, to be on a major label and promoted at the highest levels. It could so easily have happened too soon for me.
So there's so much gratitude from me about all of this: the record, the work that we did, the luck that we had, but also the hard work that we put in.
A Slow Build
Cris Cohen: And kind of along similar lines, there are a lot of significant milestones in your career that you have described as, “a slow build.”
Matt Scannell: Yeah.
Cris Cohen: 1 - Getting that initial record deal with RCA.
2 - The single, “Everything You Want,” having the auspicious honor of having the slowest climb to number one ever.
3 - You also described your becoming a friend of Neil Peart (of Rush) in the same way, “a slow build.”
So with that in mind, I'm wondering, do you think quality is inextricably linked with patience and persistence and the slow build?
Matt Scannell: That's a really good question. My gut reaction is no, because I think that quality can happen in an instant. It can be something that just either occurs to you or something you see. My gut reaction, as you asked me that question, is to think about it in terms of photography.
And I'm not a photographer, but I love taking pictures. There are moments where the most beautiful vista is just there and all you need to do is click the shutter. And then there are times when it's like a Herculean effort to try to figure out how I would compose this image.
So I do think that both are true. You can stumble into it. It can come to you in a flash or you have to pound the pavement… work, work, work to get to that place.
I was about to say the most satisfying ones are the ones you have to work the hardest for. I'm not really sure that's true. Because “Everything You Want” came to me very quickly. And that song is something I'm really proud of.
I still think that that song is better than I am.
But “Best I Ever Had,” for example, is a song I had to sort of poke and prod at continually for a long, long time. And I still think that that song is better than I am. I think that is a really good song.
And it's almost like I don't know how I got there, you know? When I was writing it, I kept listening to other bands, specifically Radiohead, because I was worried that I was stealing from them. Because it was like the melody (for “Best I Ever Had”) was better than the melodies that I could write.
But it just came (to me)? So there were elements of that quick flash of inspiration in that song in particular. And then it was just, again, slow build.
Like, “Okay, how are we going to put this together? I know what I want to say, but how am I going to say it?”
Cris Cohen: I've seen you also do videos where it's you playing acoustic guitar. And one thing I noticed is your voice is smoother than it was back in 1999.
Not that it was bad. Because especially songs like “You're A God,” there's that frustration which came through when you're singing.
So I'm curious if the smoothing out is intentional or is that the way your voice has evolved?
Matt Scannell: Nothing's intentional. I'm not a natural singer. Some of my friends are.
Richard Marx, who I love like a brother… I hate him because he walks on stage and he turns it on like a light switch. It's always there for him. It's not for me.
So I think if anything, I've probably learned how to sing in a way that I can maintain a little bit more consistency over time. But also, it's probably me just getting older. Your vocal cords change over time.
Nothing about my singing is intentional. Although I do have a vocal coach named Dave Stroud, who has really saved me. He's helped me learn how to make sounds with my voice that don't involve shredding my vocal cords.
And I think when we were tracking Everything You Want, like you say, the desperation is there. The gravitas of that moment was very clear to us. Like, this is fish or cut bait, man. We still may not get the shot after we make this record if they don't like it. So we have got to really deliver. And that nervousness, that peril -- which is really what it was -- is, I think, obvious in every performance from every guy on that record: Keith Kane, Ed Toth, Sean Hurley.
We were all really feeling, “If we don't do this, it's probably game over.”
Cris Cohen: And so that kind of seeped into the performances is kind of what you're saying.
Matt Scannell: Yeah. I think… no. I don't think. I know. Absolutely. When I listen to the vocal on “Everything You Want,” I remember being in that room singing that vocal.
Not thinking for a second that it would be a successful song. That wasn't what it was. I just didn't want to give RCA a reason to not go for it with us. To not give us the chance.
Songwriting
Cris Cohen: So I read that you have two albums waiting in the works. I'm fascinated that there are two going at the same time. Because… do you know the band Red Wanting Blue?
Matt Scannell: Yes, of course. They're fantastic.
Cris Cohen: Okay. Because I'm working with them now too.
Matt Scannell: They're so great. Those guys are amazing.
Cris Cohen: And Scott (Terry) and I had this long discussion where he talked about a past album where the label wanted them to take an older song re-release it on the new album.
Scott has a belief that songs that are written in the same time should kind of stay together. They have a cohesiveness.
So I'm wondering A) how do you do that with two albums? Is it two different feelings? And B) the prolific nature that that would take, how does that relate to how you were as a songwriter back in 1999?
Matt Scannell: I'll just speak first as a songwriter who wrote songs for that record. I stumbled on the importance of only writing songs or only putting songs on a record that were 100% authentic to me.
And that lesson, fortunately, I learned before Everything You Want. So I knew when we were doing Everything You Want that I needed to think about these songs in terms of, “Do I like them today?” That's important.
But also, “Can I imagine singing them 4,000 times in the future? Am I still going to believe in it?” If there was a part of the song that was artifice, or I took the easy way out, that was going to come back to haunt me and would rankle in the future.
So that has been a through line, really, since Everything You Want, in every record that we've done and every song on every record. That moves forward sort of elegantly and gracefully. To such an extent that, if the songs aren't there, we just don't put the record out. It's just going to take as long as it takes.
And on the one hand, that's frustrating to people who support us, to a certain degree. But I also think that they want us to make music that is authentic to us.
The Lost Mile is a good example. I think it came out in 2018.
One of my frustrations with myself is that I'm not as prolific in terms of releasing records as I really wish I was. But as a huge Peter Gabriel fan, for example, his records take as long as they take. It is what it is.
There's an element of beauty to the authenticity of taking the time that you have to take in order to make the music that you hear in your head. And if it doesn't sound as good as what you hear in your head, then you need to change it and beat it up until it does.
As far as working on two records at once, although I haven't done that before, in this case, it's actually really easy.
The energy is far more like, how am I feeling today? Am I feeling coffee or am I feeling tea? It's that kind of an energy.
And I think it'll all make sense as we get a little closer to it. I'm always hesitant to start talking too much about this stuff because then, if it takes me another year, I don't want people to be frustrated with me.
Cris Cohen: Right. It reminds me… I've interviewed and become friends with Ben Sesar. He's the drummer for Brad Paisley. And he said, “I don't fight whatever my natural feeling is for the night.”
Matt Scannell: Right.
Cris Cohen: “If I'm tired, I go out and I play tired. But I find that that'll change over the course of playing. I don't fight it. I go with it and it'll still sound good. Or if I'm feeling a little amped, I go out and play a little amped.”
Go with whatever energy you're feeling.
Matt Scannell: Yeah, just be you. I mean, obviously, at this point, he is never going to deliver a subpar show.
Cris Cohen: Right.
Matt Scannell: It's just a question of: what is the overall energy going to be? And I think sometimes you can find beauty or you can find something surprising in your least-inspired moments.
He might listen back to a live performance when he was just dragging and jet lagged. And the grooves are just fat and thick. And he might almost be like, “Whoa, wait a second. I'm surprised by that.” And I think that's really valid.
It's interesting. I remember reading an article with Geddy Lee from Rush where he was talking about how he used to do vocal tracks later in the day. But he started experimenting with singing his vocals for the records first thing in the morning. And it gave him a different tone. It gave him a different perspective. And he actually wound up really loving that.
I've yet to try it, but I'm inspired to do so. Change it up. Play when you're tired. Play when you're exhausted.
And I think sometimes, too, when it comes to lyric writing. Jerry Seinfeld… I've learned so much from him. You just have to get the pad out. You have to write. Do it. And you might get nothing, but you've done it. Geddy has said that all he wants from the day's work is five good minutes. And I love that for so many reasons. But largely, if you set the goal to something achievable, then you wind up building momentum, just by virtue of the fact that you put in the time.
Someone at his level is going to get five good minutes every time he works. So probably he winds up getting 30 good minutes or 45 good minutes or an hour and 15. And he leaves that day just having crushed his goal.
It's like the exercise rings on the iPhone or on the Apple Watch. If you set your goal to something achievable, but not Herculean, then you wind up feeling like a badass when, at the end of the day, your ring was three times through.
Cris Cohen: Did you ever read Stephen King's book On Writing?
Matt Scannell: I have not. I just bought The Shining. But is that a great book?
Cris Cohen: It is. It's nonfiction. It's part autobiography and part his theory on writing. When you were talking about you just sit and you do it every day, it has that kind of same vibe.
And this was written pre-internet. He's says to get rid of your thesaurus. Don't try and be clever. Say it how you would say it.
Matt Scannell: I went through a phase where I would consult a website called RhymeZone. You can find rhymes for (specific) words. Or I had a rhyming dictionary. And I really quickly found that it's the antithesis of the answer.
When you're writing a song, you can have a word that you want to get to, that you want to pay off. If I could get to this point, this moment, this line, this word, then I will feel something. Because we all we want music to elicit feelings and connection. So it's fair to have a goal that's a word.
But I quickly found that, if I if I was looking for a word to rhyme that with, and I wasn't coming up with it from within myself, the lyrics started to feel like you were just filling in the blanks of a Mad Lib.
And there's nothing worse. Like, come on. Forget it. Let's tear this page up and start again.
Cris Cohen: Well, with Red Wanting Blue, the band name came because he loved that lyric, but he couldn't make it work in any song. But he thought, maybe that should be the band name.
Matt Scannell: That's cool.
Covering R.E.M.
Cris Cohen: And then your cover of R.E.M.'s “Driver 8” (Toad the Wet Sprocket with Matt and Robin Wilson of Gin Blossoms).
What is the key to honoring the original and yet not just doing an imitation of Michael Stipe?
Matt Scannell: I mean, who could imitate Michael Stipe? He's unique and iconic, one of the most iconic singers and poets, as far as I'm concerned, to ever sort of get into music.
And for me, Murmur was a record that just blew my mind, completely blew my mind. Even back in high school, I was trying to maybe learn something from them and from him. I think it's really easy to not think about imitating somebody when it's one of the greats.
I did a song years ago for a movie called Little Manhattan. We did a version of “In My Life.” And as we were recording it, we had The Beatles’ original sort of as a track that we could reference. And it was hilarious. Because you would mute my vocal and we'd listen to John’s (Lennon) vocal.
And it was almost like, can we please not do that? Let's not listen to John's vocal. Because my goodness gracious, I'm not going to be able to do that. But after a while, I found myself doing is just singing it as a fan. And then it became like there was no jeopardy to it.
And so as far as like approaching my verse on “Driver 8,” I just focused on, first of all, the poetry of those lyrics. I think is just really beautiful. And then, almost as if I were just singing along with them in a live setting.
Like, if I went to an R.E.M. show, and they were playing it, I'd be singing because I just love it.
Fierce Gratitude
Cris Cohen: One last question. You've been doing a lot of interviews already. Is there anything you want to talk about that no one is asking you about?
Matt Scannell: I do want to make a point whenever I can to say that what we do is not something that we deserve. This is not a right that we have to play music for a living, certainly not 30-something years of a career in music. This is a gift that we are given every single day by people who support our band and support our music, friends and fans who take our music into their hearts and into their families.
And now we see multiple generations of families coming to shows. It's just the most beautiful thing. So I think of it as fierce gratitude. I have fierce gratitude for these people who have literally given me a life that I couldn't have even dreamt of.
We are a solid, mid-tier band. We are not a very big band, but we are on the ladder. We've got a rung of the ladder that is home, that is a beautiful spot. I can see a nice little view from my rung of the ladder.
And yeah, we put in a heck of a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get there and to hang on. But just because you want to do this thing, doesn't mean that you can or will. And the reason that we do it is because we've got people who consistently, year after year, support us.
They carry us on their shoulders from town to town. They are the moving force behind this whole thing. So the most important thing I can say is thank you.
